Title: Rare and unusual aircraft | |
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majorshrapnel | |
Date Posted:2023-03-10 01:20:03Copy HTML The BritishTSR2. This superb, highly advanced strike and reconnaissance aircraft is known in aviation circles as the plane that was shot down by its own government, as it never saw service or action. It was and still is, surrounded by mystery, conspiracy and conjecture. It was given a remarkable specification at birth, all of which were achieved and more. For a start it had to gain flight in under 600 yards and reach Mach 1.1 at ground level (200ft max) and Mach 2.2 at medium to high altitude, carry a nuclear bomb to Russia, dogfight with the best and remember we are dealing with an aircraft conceived in the 50's. It would have both front and side seeking radar and its Bristol Siddeley engines would later be fitted to the Concorde but only after the TSR2 had sorted its many faults out.The British aircraft industry had come out of WW2 as one of the very best, innovative designers and builders and with a nuclear Soviet Union to tend to the west needed such a high specification aircraft. The problem with the industry though was that we had no war to feed it and with an almost bankrupt nation it had too many companies chasing too few contracts, which led to a poison atmosphere in the industry and its various manufacturers, all stoked by political favouritism. The answer was the amalgamation of them to form BAC the British Aircraft Corporation and it was this company that would build the TSR2, all be it around the country, which became its first fault. Before it had been laid fully out it suffered political interference and design tampering, all of which began to raise the time and cost of it. Eventually it took to the air and it was spectacular and no exaggeration to say it was the finest aircraft on earth. Unfortunately it had just too many enemies, both at home and abroad, most notably the US with its rival F111. At home there was Louis Mountbatten a devoted navy man who wanted money for the Royal Navy. The RAF had 126 aircraft on order and the first overseas order was 30 for Australia but then we sent its biggest enemy to Australia in Mountbatten who then did his best to scupper the deal. In 1964 the Labour govt under Wilson came to power and the new PM visited the US to meet Johnson, a President who had been putting pressure on the Aussies to cancel their order and buy the F111 at a rock bottom price, ie under cost and between them they had the order cancelled with no objection from Wilson, who was after US loans and feared they would scupper his plans to borrow money from the IMF. Attacked from both sides the project was suddenly cancelled but not only was it cancelled but the political order went out that all built airframes, machines and tooling was to be destroyed and it was, including a wooden mock up, so that there would be no chance of another change of mind. The only change of mind was that we then bought 50 F111's from the Yanks. The govt wouldn't even allow the manufacturers to keep one for research, not one, it had to go, lock, stock and barrel and were even used as target practice. However, two in various states of finish were kept aside and they do survive and are on show at RAF Duxford museum. |
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tommytalldog | Share to: #176 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-03 06:26:50Copy HTML As a young man I knew a woman who grew up in Germany during WWII. She married a Polish guy who served in the British army after the Germans invaded. I made a big deal out of a Mercedes car in the neighborhood & her dad had one just like it & she said it was no big deal back home. By your post I assume the Rolls is still a big deal eh? |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #177 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-03 07:57:44Copy HTML I'm thinking we're at cross purposes here Tom but basically on the same song sheet |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #178 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-04 12:53:59Copy HTML As a young man I knew a woman who grew up in Germany during WWII. She married a Polish guy who served in the British army after the Germans invaded. I made a big deal out of a Mercedes car in the neighborhood & her dad had one just like it & she said it was no big deal back home. By your post I assume the Rolls is still a big deal eh? Yes, Rolls Royce are still quality and reliability personified but I can't say that their new models are aesthetically pleasing, all very Teutonic if you ask me but nothing comes near them for perfection. The Bentley's are beautiful though. The attention to detail or any detail you want is quite astonishing. I watched a prog on them a while ago and some customer wanted the stars in the sky on some constellation, in his inside roof and lighting up like the night sky. These weren't just lights that were supposed to be stars, these were diamonds. They gave the job to London's finest jeweller and when he turned up with the finished article they sent him packing, as they weren't pleased and neither was he at being told to do it again. He came back a second time and they refused it again, he finally came up to their expectations on the third attempt. Their leather comes from cows who do not live in wired fields, so that there are no scars, no matter how tiny in the leather and they can have any leather you wish, even rat hide if you want it, there is nothing beyond them. Although the company is German owned now they go out of their way to hide it in a way. Nobody with a German accent ever answers the phone, everything is kept very English |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #179 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-04 04:06:59Copy HTML As a young man I knew a woman who grew up in Germany during WWII. She married a Polish guy who served in the British army after the Germans invaded. I made a big deal out of a Mercedes car in the neighborhood & her dad had one just like it & she said it was no big deal back home. By your post I assume the Rolls is still a big deal eh? She was right, the Mercedes is no big deal in Germany or many of the surrounding European countries. But then neither is the Porsche or the Audi. All a dime a dozen. The different though with these German cars there and the North America one is the cars there will do circles around the ones sold in North America. They are built to do the endless speeds on their Autobahns there and not so here. Opel was another big name in Germany when I was there. It was like buying a Chevy compared to a Cadillac. Even my Datsun which was the European model could go 34 miles an hour faster that the North American model. All done with different gear ratios. In the early 60's a Rolls Royce in Toronto new sold for $25,000. Ronnie Hawkins bought one and use to drive it up and down Yonge Street. I can only imagine what one would go for now. The American Forces along with some Canadian ones went for buying American Muscle Cars which were great for burning the tires off but no good for the Autobahns. You could drive all day doing over a hundred and twenty miles an hour in a German car but not in an American one without over heating it and blowing the motor. |
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tommytalldog | Share to: #180 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-04 07:14:24Copy HTML Here is one model I never heard of. A 1930 Talbot Darracq. One was sold in the U.K. for 6,000 pounds & made road worthy by a 94 year old man. His father had one just like it way back when & when he saw it at auction he bought it. He recently took it on a 15 mile trip from Hertfordshire to Buckinghamshire. It is a yellow roadster & a real beauty. |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #181 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-08 07:01:35Copy HTML Here is one model I never heard of. A 1930 Talbot Darracq. One was sold in the U.K. for 6,000 pounds & made road worthy by a 94 year old man. His father had one just like it way back when & when he saw it at auction he bought it. He recently took it on a 15 mile trip from Hertfordshire to Buckinghamshire. It is a yellow roadster & a real beauty. I looked up the story with my vast computer skills and knowledge and seen the two pictures available. In both pictures you can't see anymore than one third of it. Who in hell takes pictures like that. |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #182 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-08 08:49:06Copy HTML Talbot is a kind of Anglo French company. I remember the Sunbeam Talbots well. |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #183 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-10 01:46:04Copy HTML Talbot is a kind of Anglo French company. I remember the Sunbeam Talbots well. I remember my father's White with a Red stripe 1961 Singer Gazelle. It had a 4 speed shifter on the column and chrome valve cover, twin carbs and a wooden dash that looked like it should have been in a Royce. |
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tommytalldog | Share to: #184 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-10 02:07:12Copy HTML Right or left side steering? |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #185 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-11-10 07:41:35Copy HTML They were Singer Gazelle's Pete, not Sunbeam, the Sunbeams were Rapiers (try getting away with that name now) The Rootes group used to fetch out a design and badge it up to a few company names, as they owned all of the old names. The Hillman Minx was a down market model of the same car. I have a neighbour doing up a Gazelle at the moment and another neighbour with a Minx but he died recently and his son has sold it on. |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #186 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-09 02:47:09Copy HTML Mentioning the twin rotor Chinook does the panel know that Britain had its own twin rotor copter back in 1956? It was the Bristol Belvedere a helicopter that set two world speed records in its day. It saw service in two conflicts, Singapore and Aden but its short life span was its undoing. |
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tommytalldog | Share to: #187 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-09 02:55:23Copy HTML Mentioning the twin rotor Chinook does the panel know that Britain had its own twin rotor copter back in 1956? It was the Bristol Belvedere a helicopter that set two world speed records in its day. It saw service in two conflicts, Singapore and Aden but its short life span was its undoing. I did not, but it looks similar with the twin rotors. |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #188 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 07:37:29Copy HTML Right or left side steering? Same side as North American cars. His Sunbeam Arrow was the same. They were sold in Canada through Rootes Motors. The Rootes Group or Rootes Motors Limited was a British automobile manufacturer and, separately, a major motor distributors and dealers business. Run from London's West End, the manufacturer was based in the Midlands and the distribution and dealers business in the south of England. In the decade beginning 1928 the Rootes brothers, William and Reginald, made prosperous by their very successful distribution and servicing business, were keen to enter manufacturing for closer control of the products they were selling.[1] One brother has been termed the power unit, the other the steering and braking system.[2] With the financial support of Prudential Assurance, the two brothers bought some well-known British motor manufacturers, including Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam, Talbot, Commer and Karrier, controlling them through their parent, Rootes' 60-per-cent-owned subsidiary, Humber Limited.[3] At its height in 1960, Rootes had manufacturing plants in the Midlands at Coventry and Birmingham, in southern England at Acton, Luton and Dunstable, and a brand-new plant in the west of Scotland at Linwood. From its offices in Devonshire House, Piccadilly, in London it controlled exports and international distribution for Rootes and other motor manufacturers and its own local distribution and service operations in London, Kent, Birmingham and Manchester. There were assembly plants in nine countries outside the UK.[1] Rootes Group was under-capitalised and unable to survive industrial relations problems and losses from the 1963 introduction of a new aluminium-engined small car, the Hillman Imp. By mutual agreement, from mid-1964, Rootes Motors was taken over in stages by Chrysler Corporation, which bought control from the Rootes family in 1967.[1] By the end of 1978 the last of the various elements of Chrysler UK had been sold to Peugeot and Renault.[4] |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #189 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 07:52:37Copy HTML They were Singer Gazelle's Pete, not Sunbeam, the Sunbeams were Rapiers (try getting away with that name now) The Rootes group used to fetch out a design and badge it up to a few company names, as they owned all of the old names. The Hillman Minx was a down market model of the same car. I have a neighbour doing up a Gazelle at the moment and another neighbour with a Minx but he died recently and his son has sold it on. After the Singer Gazelle he bought a Sunbeam Arrow. Never seen a Rapier but also had the Sunbeam Alpine and the Sunbeam Tiger which became very popular here. Maxwell Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger in his TV series and I bet a lot of people saw them on the show and bought one because it had a V-8 in it. A (289 cu inch) |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #190 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 08:16:28Copy HTML Mentioning the twin rotor Chinook does the panel know that Britain had its own twin rotor copter back in 1956? It was the Bristol Belvedere a helicopter that set two world speed records in its day. It saw service in two conflicts, Singapore and Aden but its short life span was its undoing. I did not, but it looks similar with the twin rotors. I rode in Chinooks a few times and once carrying strung in a cargo net sling a wack of full Gerry Cans. When they were carrying anything they kept a section of the floor open so that the flight engineer could monitor the load. Never had been on a plane that was so loud to travel in as a Chinook. The first time we didn't have ear defenders but we made sure we were wearing them after that. Our military used them a lot to move troops and equipment around from point A to B.. The CH-47 Chinook can lift up to 26,000 pounds at sea level, which is equivalent to 5 Ford F-150s all at once. |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #191 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 08:29:49Copy HTML From my father's Singer Gazelle |
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MarkUK | Share to: #192 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 08:42:52Copy HTML Mentioning the twin rotor Chinook does the panel know that Britain had its own twin rotor copter back in 1956? It was the Bristol Belvedere a helicopter that set two world speed records in its day. It saw service in two conflicts, Singapore and Aden but its short life span was its undoing. I did not, but it looks similar with the twin rotors. I rode in Chinooks a few times and once carrying strung in a cargo net sling a wack of full Gerry Cans. When they were carrying anything they kept a section of the floor open so that the flight engineer could monitor the load. Never had been on a plane that was so loud to travel in as a Chinook. The first time we didn't have ear defenders but we made sure we were wearing them after that. Our military used them a lot to move troops and equipment around from point A to B.. The CH-47 Chinook can lift up to 26,000 pounds at sea level, which is equivalent to 5 Ford F-150s all at once. The only time I've ever flown in a helicopter was in a Chinook in 2002 when the RAF took some civvies on a joyride over Stafford. |
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MarkUK | Share to: #193 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 08:57:44Copy HTML Going back to the Rootes Group, they took over the civil airfield at Meir in north Staffordshire not far from here in 1941 to build Blenheims and Beaufighters and to assemble Mustangs and Harvards that arrived in packing cases. You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning.
Arnold Bennett
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tommytalldog | Share to: #194 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 12:10:26Copy HTML I remember the Sunbeam Tiger. A tiny sports car with a Ford V-8 for power. |
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tommytalldog | Share to: #195 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-17 01:43:47Copy HTML Singer made sewing machines & tiny goofy looking cars???? |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #196 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-23 11:42:49Copy HTML I remember the Sunbeam Tiger. A tiny sports car with a Ford V-8 for power. The Tiger came with a 289 cu in motor so think about the cars size and weight to compared to American cars with the same motor. They were a Chic magnet for sure. |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #197 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-24 09:49:54Copy HTML They were Singer Gazelle's Pete, not Sunbeam, the Sunbeams were Rapiers (try getting away with that name now) The Rootes group used to fetch out a design and badge it up to a few company names, as they owned all of the old names. The Hillman Minx was a down market model of the same car. I have a neighbour doing up a Gazelle at the moment and another neighbour with a Minx but he died recently and his son has sold it on. After the Singer Gazelle he bought a Sunbeam Arrow. Never seen a Rapier but also had the Sunbeam Alpine and the Sunbeam Tiger which became very popular here. Maxwell Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger in his TV series and I bet a lot of people saw them on the show and bought one because it had a V-8 in it. A (289 cu inch) Over here they were Sunbeam Alpines, I had one for a couple of months in 73 |
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pbandrew3rd | Share to: #198 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-26 08:53:12Copy HTML They were Singer Gazelle's Pete, not Sunbeam, the Sunbeams were Rapiers (try getting away with that name now) The Rootes group used to fetch out a design and badge it up to a few company names, as they owned all of the old names. The Hillman Minx was a down market model of the same car. I have a neighbour doing up a Gazelle at the moment and another neighbour with a Minx but he died recently and his son has sold it on. After the Singer Gazelle he bought a Sunbeam Arrow. Never seen a Rapier but also had the Sunbeam Alpine and the Sunbeam Tiger which became very popular here. Maxwell Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger in his TV series and I bet a lot of people saw them on the show and bought one because it had a V-8 in it. A (289 cu inch) Over here they were Sunbeam Alpines, I had one for a couple of months in 73 My cousin had the Sunbeam Alpine and on his way up to Lake Simcoe to go ice fishing he lost it on a icy corner and it flew off the road dropping 8 feet before landed on a old tree stump. The impact knocked him out and buckled the car in the middle. |
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majorshrapnel | Share to: #199 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-26 09:09:17Copy HTML Talking about cars buckling in the middle, did I ever tell you about my MG midget? I's sure I did but I'll give you a refresher. I was towing my brother in law in a monster Vauxhall and being lads in our early twenties, ie no brains, I was pulling him down a long road and managed to get up to 60 MPH before we came to a roundabout. As you may know, the secret to towing is to keep the rope taught at all times and that's the duty of the car being towed. He let it go slack just as I put my foot down. My poor little car was virtually lifted off the floor by the force and the chassis snapped on both sides just behind the front seats, making the car dip in the middle and once I opened the doors I was unable to ever shut them properly again, so I kept them closed using an air elastic from one door to the other, pulling it back with my elbows so I could steer. |
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tommytalldog | Share to: #200 |
Re:Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted:2023-12-27 12:46:47Copy HTML My old car partner was a big lad, about 250lbs. & his wife was about 200lbs. He bought a used Fiat 124 Spyder & when they both got in it the doors would not open. He had to put the top down & crawl over the door to exit. |