Rare and unusual aircraft

Title: Rare and unusual aircraft
Generalhistory > General > General Discussion	Go to subcategory：

Author	Content

Rank：level-6
Score：3195
Posts：3195
From：United Kingdom
Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28

Date Posted：2023-03-10 01:20:03Copy HTML

The BritishTSR2. This superb, highly advanced strike and reconnaissance aircraft is known in aviation circles as the plane that was shot down by its own government, as it never saw service or action. It was and still is, surrounded by mystery, conspiracy and conjecture. It was given a remarkable specification at birth, all of which were achieved and more. For a start it had to gain flight in under 600 yards and reach Mach 1.1 at ground level (200ft max) and Mach 2.2 at medium to high altitude, carry a nuclear bomb to Russia, dogfight with the best and remember we are dealing with an aircraft conceived in the 50's. It would have both front and side seeking radar and its Bristol Siddeley engines would later be fitted to the Concorde but only after the TSR2 had sorted its many faults out.The British aircraft industry had come out of WW2 as one of the very best, innovative designers and builders and with a nuclear Soviet Union to tend to the west needed such a high specification aircraft. The problem with the industry though was that we had no war to feed it and with an almost bankrupt nation it had too many companies chasing too few contracts, which led to a poison atmosphere in the industry and its various manufacturers, all stoked by political favouritism. The answer was the amalgamation of them to form BAC the British Aircraft Corporation and it was this company that would build the TSR2, all be it around the country, which became its first fault. Before it had been laid fully out it suffered political interference and design tampering, all of which began to raise the time and cost of it. Eventually it took to the air and it was spectacular and no exaggeration to say it was the finest aircraft on earth. Unfortunately it had just too many enemies, both at home and abroad, most notably the US with its rival F111. At home there was Louis Mountbatten a devoted navy man who wanted money for the Royal Navy. The RAF had 126 aircraft on order and the first overseas order was 30 for Australia but then we sent its biggest enemy to Australia in Mountbatten who then did his best to scupper the deal. In 1964 the Labour govt under Wilson came to power and the new PM visited the US to meet Johnson, a President who had been putting pressure on the Aussies to cancel their order and buy the F111 at a rock bottom price, ie under cost and between them they had the order cancelled with no objection from Wilson, who was after US loans and feared they would scupper his plans to borrow money from the IMF. Attacked from both sides the project was suddenly cancelled but not only was it cancelled but the political order went out that all built airframes, machines and tooling was to be destroyed and it was, including a wooden mock up, so that there would be no chance of another change of mind. The only change of mind was that we then bought 50 F111's from the Yanks. The govt wouldn't even allow the manufacturers to keep one for research, not one, it had to go, lock, stock and barrel and were even used as target practice. However, two in various states of finish were kept aside and they do survive and are on show at RAF Duxford museum.

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-04 11:42:13Copy HTML

I saw on the TV this morning an add for a commemorative medal to mark the 80th anniversary of the Dambuster's Raid. Not quite got their day right, as it was actually carried out on the 16th May but yes, it was 80 years ago and this seemingly impossible strike at the very heart of German war production by bouncing a five ton bomb across water before settling it up against the dam wall exactly 30 ft underwater before exploding would have been impossible without the most successful bomber of the war, the AVRO Lancaster, which was the only aircraft capable of doing it. This aircraft, with a face only a bomber crew could love, was a major factor in the defeat of fascism and would have ended the war in Europe very much sooner had the psychopathic, death cultist maniac, Hitler, not been in charge, such was its impact on German cities and the population. Bomber command would lose over 56,000 crewmen in the war and Germany over 350,000 civilians alone, not to mention the destruction of their major cities and war production. Like the Mosquito, the Lancaster before it had its enemies, none more so than Max Aitkin, or Lord Beaverbrook as he was, minister of production. He owned Express newspapers and he couldn't see further than the already in service Manchester bomber, a flying death trap which its crews feared and hated in equal measure. The Manchester was also built by AVRO and was a two engined bomber. The airframe was great but the engines were dodgy to say the least and they were Rolls Royce engines too. They were the unreliable Vulture engine, which had many faults and was hopelessly unreliable. The jewel in the crown of aircraft engines, the Merlin engine, was only designated to fighter planes at the time. Following many deaths at the hands of the Manchester the top man at AVRO approached Beaverbrook with his idea for a four engines bomber but wanted the Merlin. Beaverbrook turned him down flat, unless he paid for it himself and told him to get on producing the Manchester, as thousands had already been ordered. However, Chadwick of AVRO, just like Geoffrey DeHavilland  with the Mosquito, went ahead with his ideas and bollocks to Beaverbrook. The thing was, the Lanc was basically a Manchester on steroids, so 70% of it was the same which means you save years and a fortune producing the vital machine tools to build it, they were already there. This was a stroke of genius but without the Merlin it was dead in the water and Beaverbrook wouldn't shift, so Rolls Royce sneaked him four engines out of the back door to play with. Coupled to the brilliant Manchester airframe, enlarged and extended to carry the four engines, the Lanc was born. When it came to its maiden flight at Ringway airport Manchester its two crew members looked like men going up to the gallows, such was the reputation of the Manchester, if two engines were a death-trap, what would four be? They took off and were so delighted with it they stayed up for double the time designated and really took it through its paces, a star was born. They would go on to build around 7000 and the factory they built them in was as innovative as the plane itself. It was built at Yeadon in Yorkshire in a custom made factory. All factories were vulnerable to bombing and everybody knew this would be a prize target for the Luftwaffe so they decided to make it invisible. They brought in designers from the film industry and the factory was totally covered over with earth and planted with trees, grass and complete with fences and fake cows grazing. No shadows were allowed to be cast and no German ever dropped a bomb on it, it was invisible.
There was a Lord Beaverbrook on The Johnny Carson Show way back when. I assume there have been lots of Lord Beaverbrook's?

Rank：level-6
Score：3195
Posts：3195
From：United Kingdom
Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-04 12:31:06Copy HTML

It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one.

Rank：level-6
Score：3195
Posts：3195
From：United Kingdom
Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-05 10:09:01Copy HTML

You've seen and heard of aircraft carriers but they've always been based at sea but what about one based on land? Yep, the Soviets actually made a number of airborne aircraft carriers, which when you think about it is a brilliant idea. You see, fighters only have a short range and can only protect bombers for a certain distance, then they're on their own but if you could carry your own fighters you could get protection at any distance and carry out a precision bombing a heavy bomber simply couldn't do. It was called the Zveno project and it was quite ingenious. There were many variations with planes carried on the wings, under the wings and both top and bottom, five fighters in all. Far from hindering the performance of the bomber the fighter actually improved it with their own engines, taking fuel directly from the bomber and so it could fly faster. Although the idea was proposed as early as 1930 it suffered from anything communism ever gets its hands on though, inefficiency and bureaucracy and so by the time they got around to the idea because of the Nazis, the bombers they were experimenting with were obsolete and so they had to redesign the project with more modern bombers. When war began they were able to put them to use. One of their first targets was the disruption of oil supplies by bombing the King Carol, bridge in Romania, which conventional bombing did not have the accuracy to do. Only a dive bomber could achieve that and so the aircraft carriers were brought out to take them there and they were a spectacular success, knocking out oil refineries as well as the vital bridge. They went on to destroy many more vital targets but after thirty successful missions they suddenly disappeared.

Rank：level-6
Score：3195
Posts：3195
From：United Kingdom
Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-05 10:11:24Copy HTML

And here it is.

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-05 04:35:34Copy HTML

Another first, this time from the Soviets.

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-05 06:05:14Copy HTML

It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one.
Three. The first was the most famous - (William) Maxwell Aitken, the Canadian-British newspaper publisher and politician. A Minister at the end of World War I before he held three successive posts in World War II all on the supply/logistics side. Created Baron Beaverbrook in 1917, he died in 1964.
His son (John William) Maxwell Aitken succeeded him as 2nd Baron, but disclaimed the title a few days later. He died in 1985 as Sir J W M Aitken.
Upon his death his son Maxwell Aitken reclaimed the vacant title and thus today in the 3rd Baron Beaverbrook.  

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-05 08:34:44Copy HTML

And here it is.
The first airborne aircraft carriers were rigid airships. The British experimented with the idea in the First World War, the Germans too, but they soon discarded the project. The Americans had greater success in the 1930s with the airships Akron and Macon.

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 12:56:15Copy HTML

It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one.
Three. The first was the most famous - (William) Maxwell Aitken, the Canadian-British newspaper publisher and politician. A Minister at the end of World War I before he held three successive posts in World War II all on the supply/logistics side. Created Baron Beaverbrook in 1917, he died in 1964.
His son (John William) Maxwell Aitken succeeded him as 2nd Baron, but disclaimed the title a few days later. He died in 1985 as Sir J W M Aitken.
Upon his death his son Maxwell Aitken reclaimed the vacant title and thus today in the 3rd Baron Beaverbrook.  
Judging by the dates, it must have been Beaverbrook II.

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 07:44:38Copy HTML

Without knowing the date I'd suggest he was more likely the 1st Baron Beaverbrook who died in 1964. His son gave up the title shortly after inheriting it and was thereafter known simply as Sir Max Aitken. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 10:37:46Copy HTML

Without knowing the date I'd suggest he was more likely the 1st Baron Beaverbrook who died in 1964. His son gave up the title shortly after inheriting it and was thereafter known simply as Sir Max Aitken. 
Johnny Carson hosted the Tonight Show from 1962 - 1992 & that is how I figured it was Beaverbrook II. BTW, why did II give up being the Lord?

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 11:10:38Copy HTML

Not quite sure. Those who have disclaimed a Peerage usually did so because of the Socialist beliefs, Max Aitken was a former Conservative Member of Parliament. It seems that he did so out of respect for his father saying " There shall be only one Lord Beaverbrook in my lifetime". 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 04:28:34Copy HTML

In the film The Battle of Britain, there is a scene where a German bomber is attempting to bomb Buckingham Palace. A spitfire pilot shoots down the bomber which is a wee bit inaccurate. The spit pilot was actually out of ammo so he rammed the bomber causing both planes to crash. The British pilot managed to safely eject & the wreckage of his airplane was buried so deep & not found until a new water main was being dug in 2004.

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 05:38:32Copy HTML

Buckingham Palace was hit nine times overall. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett

Rank：level-6
Score：3195
Posts：3195
From：United Kingdom
Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 07:05:17Copy HTML

I don't think 95% of the population has a clue as to the extent of the German bombing and devastation of our country during WW2. I might have mentioned in the past about my mother dragging me and my twin brother through the centre of Manchester in the mid 50's and we passed the front of a building, held up by wooden scaffold, with no structure behind it, it literally was just the historic facade being saved for rebuilding at a later date. We asked our mam why it was like that and I'll never forget her three word response.... those bloody Germans! It makes me laugh now but she had a terrible time with them. Her street was bombed and houses destroyed. She spent many nights in a cold, dark brick air raid shelter with a new born baby and lost many of her male neighbours and her own brother in the war. Is anybody interested now? Do the youth of today give a shite? I wonder at times.

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-06 08:32:42Copy HTML

If you haven't lived through it or have close links with those who have it loses any real significance. For the kids of today it's about as real as the Hundred Years War. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-07 12:03:25Copy HTML

I don't think 95% of the population has a clue as to the extent of the German bombing and devastation of our country during WW2. I might have mentioned in the past about my mother dragging me and my twin brother through the centre of Manchester in the mid 50's and we passed the front of a building, held up by wooden scaffold, with no structure behind it, it literally was just the historic facade being saved for rebuilding at a later date. We asked our mam why it was like that and I'll never forget her three word response.... those bloody Germans! It makes me laugh now but she had a terrible time with them. Her street was bombed and houses destroyed. She spent many nights in a cold, dark brick air raid shelter with a new born baby and lost many of her male neighbours and her own brother in the war. Is anybody interested now? Do the youth of today give a shite? I wonder at times.
Manchester is quite a way from London. Were there industrial targets for those bloody Germans, or just a break the morale of the citizens thingy? Pretty salty language for your mam?

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-07 07:34:14Copy HTML

The Germans had the ability to bomb all parts of the UK including Northern Ireland, they even accidentally bombed the Republic of Ireland a few times. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett

Rank：level-6
Score：3195
Posts：3195
From：United Kingdom
Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-07 08:36:43Copy HTML

Manchester was an industrial powerhouse at that time Tom. It is actually the birthplace of the industrial revolution. There were hundreds of mills and engineering companies based there and was home to the world's first industrial estate, the huge engineering hub, Trafford Park. Then there were the Manchester docks area, which was vital to the city for its imports and export of goods and engineering. You name it, Manchester made it. Around a thousand people were killed in the blitz and large swathes of the city destroyed.

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-07 09:23:16Copy HTML

And here I always thought of Birmingham as all of that. My exes told me of a few bombing raids on Dundee but I guess there wasn't much there worth bombing.

Rank：level-6
Score：3839
Posts：3839
From：United Kingdom
Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-07 11:40:15Copy HTML

Very few major towns and cities avoided being bombed in WW II, even if by accident. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett

Rank：level-6
Score：2019
Posts：2019
From：Canada
Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-10 08:14:54Copy HTML

It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one.
Three. The first was the most famous - (William) Maxwell Aitken, the Canadian-British newspaper publisher and politician. A Minister at the end of World War I before he held three successive posts in World War II all on the supply/logistics side. Created Baron Beaverbrook in 1917, he died in 1964.
His son (John William) Maxwell Aitken succeeded him as 2nd Baron, but disclaimed the title a few days later. He died in 1985 as Sir J W M Aitken.
Upon his death his son Maxwell Aitken reclaimed the vacant title and thus today in the 3rd Baron Beaverbrook.  
Judging by the dates, it must have been Beaverbrook II.
There is a Lord Beaverbrook Hotel in Fredericton New Brunswick. I always thought he had something to do with the first war.

Rank：level-6
Score：2019
Posts：2019
From：Canada
Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-10 08:32:35Copy HTML

In the film The Battle of Britain, there is a scene where a German bomber is attempting to bomb Buckingham Palace. A spitfire pilot shoots down the bomber which is a wee bit inaccurate. The spit pilot was actually out of ammo so he rammed the bomber causing both planes to crash. The British pilot managed to safely eject & the wreckage of his airplane was buried so deep & not found until a new water main was being dug in 2004.
The Palace was damaged in the War but I never heard the story you are telling. The spitfire had no ejection seat Tommy. Only a small side door that had to be opened or with the canopy removed to tip the plane up side down and fall out. 
You still needed altitude do bail out so your chute could fully open to slow you down before you hit the ground. 
During the Battle of Britain a lot of the dog fighters were carried out over the channel and a lot of the British pilots survived because they had a good system set up of speed boats to race out to the downed pilots and pick them up. 
Most of the German fighters because they were so limited to flying time and if caught in a dog fight ran out of fuel before they made it back to land on the French side. The French coast was littered in them.

Rank：level-6
Score：2019
Posts：2019
From：Canada
Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-10 08:54:46Copy HTML

In the film The Battle of Britain, there is a scene where a German bomber is attempting to bomb Buckingham Palace. A spitfire pilot shoots down the bomber which is a wee bit inaccurate. The spit pilot was actually out of ammo so he rammed the bomber causing both planes to crash. The British pilot managed to safely eject & the wreckage of his airplane was buried so deep & not found until a new water main was being dug in 2004.
The Palace was damaged in the War but I never heard the story you are telling. The spitfire had no ejection seat Tommy. Only a small side door that had to be opened or with the canopy removed to tip the plane up side down and fall out. 
You still needed altitude do bail out so your chute could fully open to slow you down before you hit the ground. 
During the Battle of Britain a lot of the dog fighters were carried out over the channel and a lot of the British pilots survived because they had a good system set up of speed boats to race out to the downed pilots and pick them up. 
Most of the German fighters because they were so limited to flying time and if caught in a dog fight ran out of fuel before they made it back to land on the French side. The French coast was littered in them.
With the bombing Tommy they would have a destination in mind but many times they had received too much damage to the bomber before they got to their target. They had to get rid of the weight of the bombs so would drop them before they had to go back out over the channel. Brighton was a sea side town with no military value but it did gets the odd bomb dropped on it being right on the coast. The British women were up with the styles and my mother had just had her hair done to go to the Dome for a night of dancing. The family would go under the basement stairs when ever the air raid sirens went off. A bomb fail close and hit the brewery by them and it caused a lot of the dust and house plaster to fall on them. My mother was mad as hell because her hair-do was now full of dust and plaster. Still went dancing that night though.

Rank：level-6
Score：5381
Posts：5381
From：USA
Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-10 02:38:21Copy HTML

Pete, by ejection meant he got out of the plane safely.

Rank：level-6
Score：2019
Posts：2019
From：Canada
Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46

Re：Rare and unusual aircraft

Date Posted：2023-10-10 11:05:08Copy HTML

Pete, by ejection meant he got out of the plane safely.
Ejected means the same as pushed, flung, assisted or catapulted from an a/c. Because of not having an ejection seat many didn't get out of the Spitfires. The only thing that saved many over the first war was now they were wearing a personnel chute. I know what you were trying to mean Tommy but it's was the use of the word ejection being used wrong. Don't let it happen again or we will force you to tell us about you and your hunting buddies cabin trips.

majorshrapnel
Rank：level-6 Score：3195 Posts：3195 From：United Kingdom Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28	Date Posted：2023-03-10 01:20:03Copy HTML The BritishTSR2. This superb, highly advanced strike and reconnaissance aircraft is known in aviation circles as the plane that was shot down by its own government, as it never saw service or action. It was and still is, surrounded by mystery, conspiracy and conjecture. It was given a remarkable specification at birth, all of which were achieved and more. For a start it had to gain flight in under 600 yards and reach Mach 1.1 at ground level (200ft max) and Mach 2.2 at medium to high altitude, carry a nuclear bomb to Russia, dogfight with the best and remember we are dealing with an aircraft conceived in the 50's. It would have both front and side seeking radar and its Bristol Siddeley engines would later be fitted to the Concorde but only after the TSR2 had sorted its many faults out.The British aircraft industry had come out of WW2 as one of the very best, innovative designers and builders and with a nuclear Soviet Union to tend to the west needed such a high specification aircraft. The problem with the industry though was that we had no war to feed it and with an almost bankrupt nation it had too many companies chasing too few contracts, which led to a poison atmosphere in the industry and its various manufacturers, all stoked by political favouritism. The answer was the amalgamation of them to form BAC the British Aircraft Corporation and it was this company that would build the TSR2, all be it around the country, which became its first fault. Before it had been laid fully out it suffered political interference and design tampering, all of which began to raise the time and cost of it. Eventually it took to the air and it was spectacular and no exaggeration to say it was the finest aircraft on earth. Unfortunately it had just too many enemies, both at home and abroad, most notably the US with its rival F111. At home there was Louis Mountbatten a devoted navy man who wanted money for the Royal Navy. The RAF had 126 aircraft on order and the first overseas order was 30 for Australia but then we sent its biggest enemy to Australia in Mountbatten who then did his best to scupper the deal. In 1964 the Labour govt under Wilson came to power and the new PM visited the US to meet Johnson, a President who had been putting pressure on the Aussies to cancel their order and buy the F111 at a rock bottom price, ie under cost and between them they had the order cancelled with no objection from Wilson, who was after US loans and feared they would scupper his plans to borrow money from the IMF. Attacked from both sides the project was suddenly cancelled but not only was it cancelled but the political order went out that all built airframes, machines and tooling was to be destroyed and it was, including a wooden mock up, so that there would be no chance of another change of mind. The only change of mind was that we then bought 50 F111's from the Yanks. The govt wouldn't even allow the manufacturers to keep one for research, not one, it had to go, lock, stock and barrel and were even used as target practice. However, two in various states of finish were kept aside and they do survive and are on show at RAF Duxford museum.
tommytalldog	Share to: #126
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-04 11:42:13Copy HTML I saw on the TV this morning an add for a commemorative medal to mark the 80th anniversary of the Dambuster's Raid. Not quite got their day right, as it was actually carried out on the 16th May but yes, it was 80 years ago and this seemingly impossible strike at the very heart of German war production by bouncing a five ton bomb across water before settling it up against the dam wall exactly 30 ft underwater before exploding would have been impossible without the most successful bomber of the war, the AVRO Lancaster, which was the only aircraft capable of doing it. This aircraft, with a face only a bomber crew could love, was a major factor in the defeat of fascism and would have ended the war in Europe very much sooner had the psychopathic, death cultist maniac, Hitler, not been in charge, such was its impact on German cities and the population. Bomber command would lose over 56,000 crewmen in the war and Germany over 350,000 civilians alone, not to mention the destruction of their major cities and war production. Like the Mosquito, the Lancaster before it had its enemies, none more so than Max Aitkin, or Lord Beaverbrook as he was, minister of production. He owned Express newspapers and he couldn't see further than the already in service Manchester bomber, a flying death trap which its crews feared and hated in equal measure. The Manchester was also built by AVRO and was a two engined bomber. The airframe was great but the engines were dodgy to say the least and they were Rolls Royce engines too. They were the unreliable Vulture engine, which had many faults and was hopelessly unreliable. The jewel in the crown of aircraft engines, the Merlin engine, was only designated to fighter planes at the time. Following many deaths at the hands of the Manchester the top man at AVRO approached Beaverbrook with his idea for a four engines bomber but wanted the Merlin. Beaverbrook turned him down flat, unless he paid for it himself and told him to get on producing the Manchester, as thousands had already been ordered. However, Chadwick of AVRO, just like Geoffrey DeHavilland with the Mosquito, went ahead with his ideas and bollocks to Beaverbrook. The thing was, the Lanc was basically a Manchester on steroids, so 70% of it was the same which means you save years and a fortune producing the vital machine tools to build it, they were already there. This was a stroke of genius but without the Merlin it was dead in the water and Beaverbrook wouldn't shift, so Rolls Royce sneaked him four engines out of the back door to play with. Coupled to the brilliant Manchester airframe, enlarged and extended to carry the four engines, the Lanc was born. When it came to its maiden flight at Ringway airport Manchester its two crew members looked like men going up to the gallows, such was the reputation of the Manchester, if two engines were a death-trap, what would four be? They took off and were so delighted with it they stayed up for double the time designated and really took it through its paces, a star was born. They would go on to build around 7000 and the factory they built them in was as innovative as the plane itself. It was built at Yeadon in Yorkshire in a custom made factory. All factories were vulnerable to bombing and everybody knew this would be a prize target for the Luftwaffe so they decided to make it invisible. They brought in designers from the film industry and the factory was totally covered over with earth and planted with trees, grass and complete with fences and fake cows grazing. No shadows were allowed to be cast and no German ever dropped a bomb on it, it was invisible. There was a Lord Beaverbrook on The Johnny Carson Show way back when. I assume there have been lots of Lord Beaverbrook's?
majorshrapnel	Share to: #127
Rank：level-6 Score：3195 Posts：3195 From：United Kingdom Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-04 12:31:06Copy HTML It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one.
majorshrapnel	Share to: #128
Rank：level-6 Score：3195 Posts：3195 From：United Kingdom Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-05 10:09:01Copy HTML You've seen and heard of aircraft carriers but they've always been based at sea but what about one based on land? Yep, the Soviets actually made a number of airborne aircraft carriers, which when you think about it is a brilliant idea. You see, fighters only have a short range and can only protect bombers for a certain distance, then they're on their own but if you could carry your own fighters you could get protection at any distance and carry out a precision bombing a heavy bomber simply couldn't do. It was called the Zveno project and it was quite ingenious. There were many variations with planes carried on the wings, under the wings and both top and bottom, five fighters in all. Far from hindering the performance of the bomber the fighter actually improved it with their own engines, taking fuel directly from the bomber and so it could fly faster. Although the idea was proposed as early as 1930 it suffered from anything communism ever gets its hands on though, inefficiency and bureaucracy and so by the time they got around to the idea because of the Nazis, the bombers they were experimenting with were obsolete and so they had to redesign the project with more modern bombers. When war began they were able to put them to use. One of their first targets was the disruption of oil supplies by bombing the King Carol, bridge in Romania, which conventional bombing did not have the accuracy to do. Only a dive bomber could achieve that and so the aircraft carriers were brought out to take them there and they were a spectacular success, knocking out oil refineries as well as the vital bridge. They went on to destroy many more vital targets but after thirty successful missions they suddenly disappeared.
majorshrapnel	Share to: #129
Rank：level-6 Score：3195 Posts：3195 From：United Kingdom Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-05 10:11:24Copy HTML And here it is.
tommytalldog	Share to: #130
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-05 04:35:34Copy HTML Another first, this time from the Soviets.
MarkUK	Share to: #131
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-05 06:05:14Copy HTML It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one. Three. The first was the most famous - (William) Maxwell Aitken, the Canadian-British newspaper publisher and politician. A Minister at the end of World War I before he held three successive posts in World War II all on the supply/logistics side. Created Baron Beaverbrook in 1917, he died in 1964. His son (John William) Maxwell Aitken succeeded him as 2nd Baron, but disclaimed the title a few days later. He died in 1985 as Sir J W M Aitken. Upon his death his son Maxwell Aitken reclaimed the vacant title and thus today in the 3rd Baron Beaverbrook.
MarkUK	Share to: #132
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-05 08:34:44Copy HTML And here it is. The first airborne aircraft carriers were rigid airships. The British experimented with the idea in the First World War, the Germans too, but they soon discarded the project. The Americans had greater success in the 1930s with the airships Akron and Macon.
tommytalldog	Share to: #133
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 12:56:15Copy HTML It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one. Three. The first was the most famous - (William) Maxwell Aitken, the Canadian-British newspaper publisher and politician. A Minister at the end of World War I before he held three successive posts in World War II all on the supply/logistics side. Created Baron Beaverbrook in 1917, he died in 1964. His son (John William) Maxwell Aitken succeeded him as 2nd Baron, but disclaimed the title a few days later. He died in 1985 as Sir J W M Aitken. Upon his death his son Maxwell Aitken reclaimed the vacant title and thus today in the 3rd Baron Beaverbrook. Judging by the dates, it must have been Beaverbrook II.
MarkUK	Share to: #134
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 07:44:38Copy HTML Without knowing the date I'd suggest he was more likely the 1st Baron Beaverbrook who died in 1964. His son gave up the title shortly after inheriting it and was thereafter known simply as Sir Max Aitken. You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
tommytalldog	Share to: #135
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 10:37:46Copy HTML Without knowing the date I'd suggest he was more likely the 1st Baron Beaverbrook who died in 1964. His son gave up the title shortly after inheriting it and was thereafter known simply as Sir Max Aitken. Johnny Carson hosted the Tonight Show from 1962 - 1992 & that is how I figured it was Beaverbrook II. BTW, why did II give up being the Lord?
MarkUK	Share to: #136
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 11:10:38Copy HTML Not quite sure. Those who have disclaimed a Peerage usually did so because of the Socialist beliefs, Max Aitken was a former Conservative Member of Parliament. It seems that he did so out of respect for his father saying " There shall be only one Lord Beaverbrook in my lifetime". You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
tommytalldog	Share to: #137
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 04:28:34Copy HTML In the film The Battle of Britain, there is a scene where a German bomber is attempting to bomb Buckingham Palace. A spitfire pilot shoots down the bomber which is a wee bit inaccurate. The spit pilot was actually out of ammo so he rammed the bomber causing both planes to crash. The British pilot managed to safely eject & the wreckage of his airplane was buried so deep & not found until a new water main was being dug in 2004.
MarkUK	Share to: #138
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 05:38:32Copy HTML Buckingham Palace was hit nine times overall. You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
majorshrapnel	Share to: #139
Rank：level-6 Score：3195 Posts：3195 From：United Kingdom Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 07:05:17Copy HTML I don't think 95% of the population has a clue as to the extent of the German bombing and devastation of our country during WW2. I might have mentioned in the past about my mother dragging me and my twin brother through the centre of Manchester in the mid 50's and we passed the front of a building, held up by wooden scaffold, with no structure behind it, it literally was just the historic facade being saved for rebuilding at a later date. We asked our mam why it was like that and I'll never forget her three word response.... those bloody Germans! It makes me laugh now but she had a terrible time with them. Her street was bombed and houses destroyed. She spent many nights in a cold, dark brick air raid shelter with a new born baby and lost many of her male neighbours and her own brother in the war. Is anybody interested now? Do the youth of today give a shite? I wonder at times.
MarkUK	Share to: #140
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-06 08:32:42Copy HTML If you haven't lived through it or have close links with those who have it loses any real significance. For the kids of today it's about as real as the Hundred Years War. You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
tommytalldog	Share to: #141
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-07 12:03:25Copy HTML I don't think 95% of the population has a clue as to the extent of the German bombing and devastation of our country during WW2. I might have mentioned in the past about my mother dragging me and my twin brother through the centre of Manchester in the mid 50's and we passed the front of a building, held up by wooden scaffold, with no structure behind it, it literally was just the historic facade being saved for rebuilding at a later date. We asked our mam why it was like that and I'll never forget her three word response.... those bloody Germans! It makes me laugh now but she had a terrible time with them. Her street was bombed and houses destroyed. She spent many nights in a cold, dark brick air raid shelter with a new born baby and lost many of her male neighbours and her own brother in the war. Is anybody interested now? Do the youth of today give a shite? I wonder at times. Manchester is quite a way from London. Were there industrial targets for those bloody Germans, or just a break the morale of the citizens thingy? Pretty salty language for your mam?
MarkUK	Share to: #142
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-07 07:34:14Copy HTML The Germans had the ability to bomb all parts of the UK including Northern Ireland, they even accidentally bombed the Republic of Ireland a few times. You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
majorshrapnel	Share to: #143
Rank：level-6 Score：3195 Posts：3195 From：United Kingdom Register：2008-12-20 12:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-07 08:36:43Copy HTML Manchester was an industrial powerhouse at that time Tom. It is actually the birthplace of the industrial revolution. There were hundreds of mills and engineering companies based there and was home to the world's first industrial estate, the huge engineering hub, Trafford Park. Then there were the Manchester docks area, which was vital to the city for its imports and export of goods and engineering. You name it, Manchester made it. Around a thousand people were killed in the blitz and large swathes of the city destroyed.
tommytalldog	Share to: #144
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-07 09:23:16Copy HTML And here I always thought of Birmingham as all of that. My exes told me of a few bombing raids on Dundee but I guess there wasn't much there worth bombing.
MarkUK	Share to: #145
Rank：level-6 Score：3839 Posts：3839 From：United Kingdom Register：2009-11-12 09:24:59	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-07 11:40:15Copy HTML Very few major towns and cities avoided being bombed in WW II, even if by accident. You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
pbandrew3rd	Share to: #146
Rank：level-6 Score：2019 Posts：2019 From：Canada Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-10 08:14:54Copy HTML It's over to our Royal Correspondent (retired) to fill us in on that one. Three. The first was the most famous - (William) Maxwell Aitken, the Canadian-British newspaper publisher and politician. A Minister at the end of World War I before he held three successive posts in World War II all on the supply/logistics side. Created Baron Beaverbrook in 1917, he died in 1964. His son (John William) Maxwell Aitken succeeded him as 2nd Baron, but disclaimed the title a few days later. He died in 1985 as Sir J W M Aitken. Upon his death his son Maxwell Aitken reclaimed the vacant title and thus today in the 3rd Baron Beaverbrook. Judging by the dates, it must have been Beaverbrook II. There is a Lord Beaverbrook Hotel in Fredericton New Brunswick. I always thought he had something to do with the first war.
pbandrew3rd	Share to: #147
Rank：level-6 Score：2019 Posts：2019 From：Canada Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-10 08:32:35Copy HTML In the film The Battle of Britain, there is a scene where a German bomber is attempting to bomb Buckingham Palace. A spitfire pilot shoots down the bomber which is a wee bit inaccurate. The spit pilot was actually out of ammo so he rammed the bomber causing both planes to crash. The British pilot managed to safely eject & the wreckage of his airplane was buried so deep & not found until a new water main was being dug in 2004. The Palace was damaged in the War but I never heard the story you are telling. The spitfire had no ejection seat Tommy. Only a small side door that had to be opened or with the canopy removed to tip the plane up side down and fall out. You still needed altitude do bail out so your chute could fully open to slow you down before you hit the ground. During the Battle of Britain a lot of the dog fighters were carried out over the channel and a lot of the British pilots survived because they had a good system set up of speed boats to race out to the downed pilots and pick them up. Most of the German fighters because they were so limited to flying time and if caught in a dog fight ran out of fuel before they made it back to land on the French side. The French coast was littered in them.
pbandrew3rd	Share to: #148
Rank：level-6 Score：2019 Posts：2019 From：Canada Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-10 08:54:46Copy HTML In the film The Battle of Britain, there is a scene where a German bomber is attempting to bomb Buckingham Palace. A spitfire pilot shoots down the bomber which is a wee bit inaccurate. The spit pilot was actually out of ammo so he rammed the bomber causing both planes to crash. The British pilot managed to safely eject & the wreckage of his airplane was buried so deep & not found until a new water main was being dug in 2004. The Palace was damaged in the War but I never heard the story you are telling. The spitfire had no ejection seat Tommy. Only a small side door that had to be opened or with the canopy removed to tip the plane up side down and fall out. You still needed altitude do bail out so your chute could fully open to slow you down before you hit the ground. During the Battle of Britain a lot of the dog fighters were carried out over the channel and a lot of the British pilots survived because they had a good system set up of speed boats to race out to the downed pilots and pick them up. Most of the German fighters because they were so limited to flying time and if caught in a dog fight ran out of fuel before they made it back to land on the French side. The French coast was littered in them. With the bombing Tommy they would have a destination in mind but many times they had received too much damage to the bomber before they got to their target. They had to get rid of the weight of the bombs so would drop them before they had to go back out over the channel. Brighton was a sea side town with no military value but it did gets the odd bomb dropped on it being right on the coast. The British women were up with the styles and my mother had just had her hair done to go to the Dome for a night of dancing. The family would go under the basement stairs when ever the air raid sirens went off. A bomb fail close and hit the brewery by them and it caused a lot of the dust and house plaster to fall on them. My mother was mad as hell because her hair-do was now full of dust and plaster. Still went dancing that night though.
tommytalldog	Share to: #149
Rank：level-6 Score：5381 Posts：5381 From：USA Register：2008-12-08 11:28:28	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-10 02:38:21Copy HTML Pete, by ejection meant he got out of the plane safely.
pbandrew3rd	Share to: #150
Rank：level-6 Score：2019 Posts：2019 From：Canada Register：2022-04-22 08:45:46	Re：Rare and unusual aircraft Date Posted：2023-10-10 11:05:08Copy HTML Pete, by ejection meant he got out of the plane safely. Ejected means the same as pushed, flung, assisted or catapulted from an a/c. Because of not having an ejection seat many didn't get out of the Spitfires. The only thing that saved many over the first war was now they were wearing a personnel chute. I know what you were trying to mean Tommy but it's was the use of the word ejection being used wrong. Don't let it happen again or we will force you to tell us about you and your hunting buddies cabin trips.