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majorshrapnel
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Date Posted:2022-12-14 03:29:11Copy HTML

This war, begun in 1882, was the starting shot in a long history of British involvement in Egypt, which also saw them fight in the Sanai, Sudan, in both world wars and finally in the Suez crisis of 1956. Before the intervention by Britain Egypt had been ruled by the Ottoman Turks for 300 years or so. In the early years of the 19th century it had been autonomously ruled by Muhammed Ali and it would be his Grandson, Ishmael Pasha, who would seek to expel all unwanted foreigners and build Egypt into a modern, European type state. Ishmael began a huge spending spree to turn Cairo into a French style city, build the Suez canal and get himself his very own empire, from the Med, through Sudan and all the way to Uganda. It was Ismael who hired Chinese Gordon, as everybody knew him then before history retitled him Gordon of Khartoum. Gordon would be given the title Governor of Sudan, run his army and frankly you couldn't get a better man. Now, Sudan was not too happy with Ishmael's plans for them and under their leader, the Mahdi, rose up in revolt. Meanwhile, his extravagance at home had put the country in deep debt and to pay that debt he borrowed money at extravagant rates of interest. Now being dragged deeper into debt he decided to sell his 40% share of the Suez canal and who do you think bought it? Yep, the Brits,

majorshrapnel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #26
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-20 02:00:47Copy HTML

The expedition to save Gordon would be a huge logistical exercise now, never mind back in Gordon's day, with a price tag to go with it. Once again the expedition would be under the command of Sir Garnet Wolseley. On reaching Egypt he was instructed to wait upon circumstances and see what transpired. Fact was, the government expected him to obey orders and get out of there as instructed but after five months it was obvious he wasn't going to abandon the capitol or its inhabitants so the army was instructed to proceed to their relief. From the two routes open to him he decided his army would go by river, all 5000 of them, a seemingly impossible task but Wolseley had previous experience of moving an army by river, in Canada. There he had used professional hunters and river men called voyageurs and he considered the same could be done here on the Nile. So would he employ local equivalents? Not a bit of it, he wanted this Canadian voyageurs and they took three months to finally arrive, all 380 of them. From here on in it was quite frankly a tale of what should have been and what was. The army never went to Khartoum as a whole, only one battle was fought and that was by a detachment. It was too little too late and Khartoum fell and thousands of the city were ruthlessly slaughtered. The women and children were taken as slaves as well as the men. Gordon's head was put on display and the army returned home. Back in Britain the public was outraged looking for answers and a suitable scape goat. The Queen blamed Gladstone and that was good enough for everybody else and he was forced from office. It was not the end of Britain's dealings with the Mahdi's army although the Mahdi himself died just six months later, however they were to meet one last time in a decisive battle at Omdurman
MarkUK Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #27
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-20 02:42:32Copy HTML

The battle you skimmed over was the one in which Lord St Vincent was killed, the battle of Abu Klea, 17 January 1885. He was adjutant of the Heavy Camel Corps and was mortally wounded by Dervish rifle fire. As the battle raged he was strapped onto a camel with another wounded man, one on either side. But the Mahdists broke into the square and killed the camel, it collapsed on its side with the injured St Vincent underneath, the soldier on the other side was speared to death. Lord St Vincent remained behind with the other wounded under guard while the rest of the army marched on Khartoum. He died five days later on 22 January aged 34. 

Breaking the Square: Britain Takes on Mahdi at the Battle of Abu Klea -  Warfare History Network

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #28
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-20 04:24:53Copy HTML

The expedition to save Gordon would be a huge logistical exercise now, never mind back in Gordon's day, with a price tag to go with it. Once again the expedition would be under the command of Sir Garnet Wolseley. On reaching Egypt he was instructed to wait upon circumstances and see what transpired. Fact was, the government expected him to obey orders and get out of there as instructed but after five months it was obvious he wasn't going to abandon the capitol or its inhabitants so the army was instructed to proceed to their relief. From the two routes open to him he decided his army would go by river, all 5000 of them, a seemingly impossible task but Wolseley had previous experience of moving an army by river, in Canada. There he had used professional hunters and river men called voyageurs and he considered the same could be done here on the Nile. So would he employ local equivalents? Not a bit of it, he wanted this Canadian voyageurs and they took three months to finally arrive, all 380 of them. From here on in it was quite frankly a tale of what should have been and what was. The army never went to Khartoum as a whole, only one battle was fought and that was by a detachment. It was too little too late and Khartoum fell and thousands of the city were ruthlessly slaughtered. The women and children were taken as slaves as well as the men. Gordon's head was put on display and the army returned home. Back in Britain the public was outraged looking for answers and a suitable scape goat. The Queen blamed Gladstone and that was good enough for everybody else and he was forced from office. It was not the end of Britain's dealings with the Mahdi's army although the Mahdi himself died just six months later, however they were to meet one last time in a decisive battle at Omdurman

What was the cause of Mahdi's death?

MarkUK Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #29
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-20 06:34:33Copy HTML

A undefined illness, most likely smallpox or typhoid.

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
majorshrapnel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #30
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-21 10:03:53Copy HTML

The battle of Omdurman was a complete one sided affair. The Mahdi army had modern rifles but not the very latest, having only half the range and speed of the British army. I think there was only one order in their arsenal.... Charge! Their fanaticism was no match for an army as disciplined and stoic as Britain's regimental system and their Egyptian allies. The difference in casualties told the story with the British losing only 500 men killed and wounded whilst the Mahdists lost at least 10,000 and an equal amount wounded. Kitchener marched on Khartoum where he had the Mahdi's tomb desecrated and his remains scattered. Gordon was his great hero after all.
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-21 11:42:23Copy HTML

A young Lt Winston Churchill of the 4th Hussars attached to the 21st Lancers took part in the battle. The 21st Lancers was a fairly new regiment with no battle honours and was given the derisory motto "Thou Shalt Not Kill" by other more senior regiments. In order to gain credibility in the field someone gave the order to charge what they thought was a body of about 400 Dervishes. However as they got closer they saw around 2500 of them in a hidden depression. The Lancers fought their way out and won three Victoria Crosses. 

The scene is recreated in the 1972 film Young Winston.

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #32
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-21 12:43:08Copy HTML

A young Lt Winston Churchill of the 4th Hussars attached to the 21st Lancers took part in the battle. The 21st Lancers was a fairly new regiment with no battle honours and was given the derisory motto "Thou Shalt Not Kill" by other more senior regiments. In order to gain credibility in the field someone gave the order to charge what they thought was a body of about 400 Dervishes. However as they got closer they saw around 2500 of them in a hidden depression. The Lancers fought their way out and won three Victoria Crosses. 

The scene is recreated in the 1972 film Young Winston.


Winston threw himself into battle & put himself in dangerous situations for most of his life, his courage could not be questioned. His reasoning many thought was to enhance his political career & he had help from his politically connected mother as well.

majorshrapnel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #33
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-23 11:43:24Copy HTML

The battle you skimmed over was the one in which Lord St Vincent was killed, the battle of Abu Klea, 17 January 1885. He was adjutant of the Heavy Camel Corps and was mortally wounded by Dervish rifle fire. As the battle raged he was strapped onto a camel with another wounded man, one on either side. But the Mahdists broke into the square and killed the camel, it collapsed on its side with the injured St Vincent underneath, the soldier on the other side was speared to death. Lord St Vincent remained behind with the other wounded under guard while the rest of the army marched on Khartoum. He died five days later on 22 January aged 34. 

Breaking the Square: Britain Takes on Mahdi at the Battle of Abu Klea -  Warfare History Network


Getting too much into minutia of these battles would extend them too far. Not only was Lord Vincent killed in this battle but Colonel Fred Burnaby too, a man who everybody in Victorian Britain would have known and now almost completely lost to time. Known as the bravest man in Britain he was a hugely popular hero of his time, when Britain wasn't short of them due to the multitude of battles we were fighting and expeditions going on in all corners of the earth. He was a Brit who could speak seven languages, when the majority of them had trouble with English. He was extremely tall for his time and freakishly strong. He was commissioned into the Horse Guards aged just 17. He travelled far and wide during his periods of leave to many very dangerous places and became somewhat of a celebrity wherever he went. Back home his books were best sellers and he became the first Englishman to cross the Channel in a balloon. The country went into mourning at the news of his death and the Queen almost collapsed.

tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #34
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-23 12:50:03Copy HTML

Re: this Burnby feller. If he was all you said & only a colonel? No Sir, No letters after his name? No peerage?
MarkUK Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #35
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-23 01:42:08Copy HTML

I'm sure had he lived, he was 42 at the time of his death, he would have been properly honoured. His grave is a simple mound of stones far into the Sudanese desert.

The Library of Nineteenth-Century Photography - Colonel Frederick Burnaby  (Royal Horse Guards) 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-23 02:38:51Copy HTML

No posthumous awards in GB? You would have thought a hero of such magnitude would have been brought home for proper burial. 
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2022-12-23 06:49:23Copy HTML

Those killed in foreign wars in Victorian times were rarely brought home, the practicalities were enormous. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
pbandrew3rd Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #38
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-05-23 05:16:39Copy HTML

Those killed in foreign wars in Victorian times were rarely brought home, the practicalities were enormous. 


You don't have to go back that far. Look at the first war for example. Most were buried along the French coast. The shear number of deaths would have made it impossible to bring them all home.

majorshrapnel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #39
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-05-23 06:26:38Copy HTML

When you go to the likes of Belgium you come across dozens of small cemeteries just lining the roads. They buried them virtually where they fell and with their comrades, which seems fitting to me.
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-05-23 09:33:37Copy HTML

There are two huge ones in GB - Brookwood and Cannock, both with over 5000 burials. Brookwood is mostly UK and Commonwealth, Cannock is mostly German. 

You're playing chess with Fate and Fate's winning. Arnold Bennett
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-10-12 10:24:09Copy HTML

From the two routes open to him he decided his army would go by river, all 5000 of them, a seemingly impossible task but Wolseley had previous experience of moving an army by river, in Canada. There he had used professional hunters and river men called voyageurs and he considered the same could be done here on the Nile.


The rivers in Canada weren't full of Crocs and Hippos like the Nile was. Only a fool not in his right mind would try travelling in a birch bark canoe on the Nile. Even the locals boats were too narrow and shallow to carry much weight far these 5000 men and equipment.


The Wolseley expedition was a military force authorized by Canadian Prime Minister John A. Macdonald to confront Louis Riel and the Métis in 1870, during the Red River Rebellion, at the Red River Colony in what is now the province of Manitoba. The expedition was also intended to counter American expansionist sentiments in northern border states. Leaving Toronto in May, the expedition arrived, after a three-month journey in arduous conditions, at Fort Garry on August 24.[1] This extinguished Riel's provisional government and eradicated the threat of the American expansion into western Canada.

They would have travelled from Toronto up and into the Great Lakes and finished the water journey in Lake Superior. From there they would have walked around the north end of Superior to Manitoba. They could have taken a shorter route if they cut through the States but none of them had passports needed to clear through customs with them at the time.

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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-10-12 10:33:10Copy HTML

The Metis were Indian fur traders eh?
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-10-12 11:01:35Copy HTML

The Metis were Indian fur traders eh?

The Metis were half Native half French usually. They did have the odd Scott throw in the mix who also probably had a native lady. The main reason for the fight was over the fur trade.


The North West Company was a fur trading business headquartered in Montreal from 1779 to 1821. It competed with increasing success against the Hudson's Bay Company in the regions that later became Western Canada and Northwestern Ontario. With great wealth at stake, tensions between the companies increased to the point where several minor armed skirmishes broke out, and the two companies were forced by the British government to merge.

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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-10-13 12:28:08Copy HTML

Louis Riel, does sound like a French given & surname.
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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-10-13 03:42:46Copy HTML

Louis Riel, does sound like a French given & surname.

In many ways he was a phony Tommy. He rammed the Catholic religion into them convincing many of them that God had sent him alone to save them. Many not knowing any better swallowed it hook line and sinker. They started treating him like he was a God.

The Selkirk group of Scots that went west to the Red River Valley area were harassed by the North West Company so much with having their crops burned and their live stock killed they finally move back to my area.

Louis Riel was hanged. 

One of my Usher's Mother at my wedding could track her heritage back to Riel. He and his mother were Mohawk who originally came from Northern Ontario.

If you say his last name as if it had a double L on the end would that sound more French to you?


100_0087.JPG

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Re:Anglo Egyptian War 1882

Date Posted:2023-10-13 04:01:53Copy HTML

Here is the second church the Selkirk group built which is only one concession road lower that the first one. Both were Presbyterian Churches


image.png 

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